No.7171
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I'm just wondering what's going on with Manley's ban and why he was given a perma ban.
No.7175
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>>7172heh
>>7173So maybe I'm wrong here, but I was under the impression that you were not handling his bans because of your guys history.
When did that change?
No.7177
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>>7175bans are issued now more at the discretion of individual moderators - bans no longer escalate in a scale, but history of poor behavior will still play a role in considerations
>>7171Manley was given his ban due to constant violations of Rule 1, pertaining to civility and respectfulness of others, despite many, many, many warnings, and even past bans.
Manley has technically been on probation, only, it has been very generous.
>>7176i am unhappy to see Manley go, as i do like to spend time with him. he will be given the right to appeal, as all the permabanned users do, and i hope he will make a simple and decent appeal
No.7178
>>7177But we were told that Luna would not be handling his ban, Moony.
When did that change? Because I'm sorry, but I do not trust Luna to give a fair judgment on this, and the fact that we were told one thing-that Luna would not be handling bans involving him, and then for Luna to be the one that ends up perma banning him?
I am very suspicious.
No.7179
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>>7178i told Manley in private to consider the ban from me. i understand the frustration there, but the moderators have more discretion to act now too and that is supposed to assist in more timely enforcement of policies - Luna is within their right to act, and i must agree - Manley has pushed the rule too far, too often
i hope you will not feel suspicious, Ella.
No.7180
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>>7179Moony you cannot take responsibility for everything that everyone else does.
*sigh*
Look, I'm trying to be patient here, but unfortunately I
am suspicious, and quite honestly, a bit ticked off. Not just because he's my friend, but because what he was banned for-his comment to about what he
thought of Iara, did not seem ban worthy to me.
I mean tell me honestly, if someone I knew whom I personally have a lot of beef with found this site and started posting, and -I- had said exactly what Manley had, would I have gotten a ban? Would I have even gotten a warning? Probably not. And that's not even going into the fact that he was pointing out that despite what you may personally think of someone, everyone should still be treated with a certain amount of respect.
Yea, I get that he has a history of getting in trouble. Hell, we have gotten in fights many times about us disagreeing on how he was treating people. But you know what else has happened over the years? He has changed how he looks at things, and more importantly, how he treats people. But that, that progress, seems to all go out the window every time he is even perceived as being rude. So I mean really, what's the point of making progress at all if your still going to be held to the same standards as before you made progress?
No.7181
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>>7180yes, Ella, you would have received a ban. Or at least a warning, as you do not have such a long history of insulting others. Nobody else does, as Manley does. And as such, nobody else receives a ban, as Manley does.
Rule 1 of the site is to be civil and to treat people with respect.
Manley surely thinks a lot of things about a lot of people. Some of those thoughts belong in private, face to face conversations though, and they do not belong on site.
If he has changed how he looks at things, and how he treats people, he is not showing it through his actions and at the end of the day, actions speak much louder than words, and intentions do not speak at all.
he is held to the standard we are all held at, Ella. Just like how Steam Twist was given many tries to follow the rules, but could not seem to do so, Manley is in the same position - he either does not respect the rules, or does understand them... and if "please be civil" cannot be understood, i think, that is a problem.
No.7182
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>>7181>>7181>yes, Ella, you would have received a ban. Or at least a warning, as you do not have such a long history of insulting others.I have a difficult time believing that.
>If he has changed how he looks at things, and how he treats people, he is not showing it through his actions After I pointed out to him that how he was talking to Fleur was wrong, he stopped doing that and started talking to him with respect. I've also seen him have a good talk with Mikie and start treating him better respect, even though he was very angry with Mikie for a long time.
If the books already shut, then it's already shut and nothing I say here will really change anyone's mind, but that's a load that he hasn't been showing it at all.
No.7183
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>>7182Manley said, and i quote:
"I think Iara is a horribly cruel person who lacks any sort of empathy. It still doesn't justify the things you said. You should really reconsider your whole outlook of "it's ok to be mean when someone is bad", because not only does it make you no better than they are, that's only going to lead to more mean people existing. Having a "reason" to me mean is not a justification for that meanness. All mean people think they have a "reason" to be mean to people."
Is this the civility and respectfulness that we are trying to defend, Ella?
Can you tell me a moment where you have said anything this mean, about anyone?
It is true, Manley is capable of treating people with respect, as he has done with Mikie
But, it does not excuse this, or past, rule breaking behaviors.
...it's not even about the book, Ella. i get that Manley is your friend. He is mine too. But we must draw the line somewhere. i do not think it is fair for users to tolerate this kind of insulting from anyone.
No.7184
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>>7183>>7183>Can you tell me a moment where you have said anything this mean, about anyone?I have said, much,
much worse than that when I was hurt and angry. Maybe not so much here because I have to think before I open my mouth, but I'm human and I have been mean to people, especially in past years and before I truly understood how much it was hurting the other person.
As for drawing the line-alright. It's your site Moony. You choose where you want to draw your line, but I'm drawing mine, and I don't think this is right, and I don't trust the judgment that led to it.
No.7185
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>>7184>Maybe not so much here because I have to think before I open my mouthThat is exactly the issue, Ella. Of course, we all say and think things that are unbecoming of us. i even think mean thoughts sometimes, that i regret.
The difference is, you think before you open your mouth. And Manley does not, and has not.
Is this where the line must be drawn? If calling somebody a horribly cruel person who lacks any sort of empathy is acceptable, in light of all the other insulting that has happened, where should i put the line, Ella?
Where is the reasonable place to put it? i wish to understand how you would handle it.
No.7187
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>>7185You cannot change what someone thinks of someone else. The only person who can change that, is the person who caused them to think so badly of them in the first place, and then only if that's something they want to do.
He was not directly attacking Iara. His opinion of her is not great, as he said himself with his own words, but he was not outright attacking her. Was the context of everything else that he said not considered at all?
If what you consider what someone thinks of someone else to be against the site civility rules that you would like to see here, then I cannot really say anything Moony. If that is your standard, than that is your standard, but I personally have not seen Manley taking his dislike of Iara out on her.
As far as where to put the line, that standard ultimately has to be chosen by you. If you want to know what my line is, it is when someone let's their dislike of someone else begin to leak out into their every day actions with that other person. When they start treating them with less than basic decency and respect.
>>7186>and it was the right actionAs someone who is part of the community here, I do not agree.
He was not bullying. Again, I feel as if the context of his whole statement was not taken into account, and telling me I have to cope with it is not making me feel any better about this, because it just feels a lot like 'well you just have to deal with it because I said so'.
If he was bullying, then by all means, I would have agreed whole heartedly with a warning, or even ban. He was 'bullying' Fleur before I had a talk with him in private and he came to understand what he was doing.
But this seems extreme, especially after we were informed of the way you guys will be handling bans, and especially after we were told YOU would not be handling his bans. And I have still have not been corrected on that if that has changed.
No.7188
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>>7187>>7187...Ella, by that standard, anyone could skirt our rules on respectfulness by simply saying they are trying to add context.
Indirect fire is still fire... and having a not-great opinion is not the same as calling one "horribly cruel"
Can you really, really tell me that saying someone is horribly cruel and without empathy, in any context, is civil? is respectful, Ella?
...
The staff tells me too that one of the stipulations of Manley's return back in was that he not talk to Dizzy and iara.
Our records show, this came up in March of this year, when Manley talked about iara, but not to - he was almost re-permbanned then, but was given a pass on a technicality, with the caveat that he also should not talk -about- iara in the future, either.
There is this angle to consider, as well.
No.7189
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>>7188>The staff tells me too that one of the stipulations of Manley's return back in was that he not talk to Dizzy and iara.>Our records show, this came up in March of this year, when Manley talked about iara, but not to - he was almost re-permbanned then, but was given a pass on a technicality, with the caveat that he also should not talk -about- iara in the future, either. I didn't know about that. I just asked him, and he's saying he wasn't told that, so I'm not sure what happened there. Not that I don't believe you, just wondering if something got mixed up there in the communication.
>Can you really, really tell me that saying someone is horribly cruel and without empathy, in any context, is civil? is respectful, Ella?I think context is important Moony, but I'm also seeing what you mean here and about your standards, so I really don't know what to say to that. Maybe I'm just a bit jaded anymore.
No.7190
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>>7189i promise, ella, i will help to at least sort this all out.
you know, i do deeply love you and Manley both.
i don't want to see anyone hurt, especially not here, a place where we come to find peace in a hurt world.
i hope, dear friend, we can think together on all of this... and figure it out.
...it is far past bed time for me. but, i love you very much.
No.7192
>>7187Upon discussion and introspection: Issuing Manley's ban myself was a violation of trust. The staff trusted me to consult with them extensively, and I did not. The posters trusted me not to engage with Manley as a moderator, and I did. Regardless of the conviction I felt, and regardless of Moony later agreeing the ban was warranted, the fact that I personally issued the ban was a massive irresponsibility on my end. I'm sorry.
I still think what Manley said is inappropriate in any context, by any metric, and was worthy of a ban. As it would be if anyone else were to say the same. There are kinder ways to say what he had meant to say, and this is undeniable. Wording it in such a way is cruel and uncivil at best.
No.7193
>>7190I know Moony, I love you too. Get some sleep.
>>7192Thank you Luna, for recognizing that.
I don't have a whole lot else to say on the matter, and it is getting a bit late.
No.7194
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>>7187I'm not going to express any opinion on the length of ban, but I agree with Moony that saying "I think
<fellow poster> is a horribly cruel person who lacks any sort of empathy" (
>>>/rock/1495) is definitely beyond the norms of respect and civility of this site. Iara certainly did not enjoy reading that sentence about her. There are some thoughts that are best kept to oneself or discussed in private, to avoid escalating nastiness like has happened on this site in the past. Of course, other sites have different rules. It would have been allowed on old /ef/, but /ef/ has a much different culture. And even /ef/ just this week adopted a new rule against incivility because it was causing problems on the board.
I don't think Manley was
intentionally being uncivil to Iara, but he really should have imagined how the person he was writing about would feel before clicking the Submit button.
[Disclosure: Although I have tried to be objective in this post, I am, of course, biased by relationship with Iara.]
No.7195
>>7180>So I mean really, what's the point of making progress at all if your still going to be held to the same standards as before you made progress?Not to hop in too much on this, but progress doesn't mean forgiveness.
If a friend of mine has a long history of stealing, even if he's stopped for a while and seems to have made progress with those urges, I don't leave him my keys after he takes my wallet again.
I do understand the "what's the point" perspective, but progress towards not doing bad things doesn't excuse the bad things, and isn't enough reason to trust more bad things won't happen again. And in this case, it's not a question of "if", it's happened.
Other people might, and now have, gotten hurt.
It's not a reasonable exchange for someone making progress towards change. Maybe when they actually change.
No.7197
>>7196I'm hesitant to value safety over other people's feelings. For the sake of society, we
must forgive, unconditionally. We gain nothing from fear or anger.
No.7198
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>>7197I think unconditional forgiveness has made quite a few domestic abuse and pre-meditated murder situations possible, quite honestly.
No.7199
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>>7197>We gain nothing from fear or anger.I dunno. One might also say that one gains nothing from one-boxing on Newcomb's Problem [1, 2], and yet the kind of people who would one-box have better outcomes that the kind of people who would two-box. If Russia nukes us, we would gain nothing from nuking Russia back, yet we spend billions of dollars to ensure that we have second-strike capability, because the
threat of retaliation
does gain us something. And similarly, perhaps anger has value as a deterrent.
[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcomb's_paradox[2]
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/6ddcsdA2c2XpNpE5x/newcomb-s-problem-and-regret-of-rationality No.7200
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>>7199What if i choose only box A? That's a guaranteed payout and for all I know this is really Saw style game and inside that opaque B box is a booby trap!
No.7201
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>>7200>What if i choose only box A?Then you always get only $1000.
>for all I know ...As a working definition of "knowledge", let's go with "justified true belief". The truth of what's in Box A is stipulated by the terms of the thought experiment. And I think it's implied that you believe the terms. So that leaves justification. I guess there isn't much justification in the original statement of the thought experiment. So let's modify it to say that you've personally witnessed this scenario play out with multiple other people choosing boxes, and it has always played out as stipulated.
No.7202
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>>7201Ah well, then i really have to take both boxes. 1000 dollars is better than no dollars.
No.7204
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>>7203I guess it depends on the mechanics of the hypothetical. If you say that it's impossible for box B to have zero dollars in it when single boxing, then of course I would take it. But that's not really the problem as presented. I could speak at length about two boxing as a strategy but this isn't really the right place for it.
No.7205
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>>7173Necessary.
Added too much unnecessary drama, caused Moderators unnecessary stress, and was all around unapologetic.
No.7206
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Well hopefully now he undergoes some more introspection and change in attitude, since it always seems to take these permabans for him to do it.
Maybe after that hopefully he'll have a chance to come back in the future.
No.7207
Okay, firstly, I was the one who reported Manley. NOT because of what he said about Iara, but because he was trying to reescalate a conflict with Kadence. A bunch of people (including a number of people in this thread) basically all piled on her for something Iara brought up and she responded to with hostility and disgust.
Not a good thread, generally a lot of people got kind of dog-piley on Kadence ... but eventually everyone stopped, and then a day later Manley comes back and is clearly trying to start it up again in a way that, from my perspective, seemed like harassment and goading Kadence, not Iara, but Kadence. I reported him for harassing her, not Iara.
No.7208
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>>7207Hmm, I think Manley had some pretty sound advice for Kadence. If he had just omitted the first two sentences of his post (
>>>/rock/1495), it would have been a good post IMHO.
No.7209
>>7182Im skeptical as well.
Ironic that stating what you think should not be a basis for treating people unkindly was stated unkindly enuf to break the camels back.
>>7181You admitted to me that Steam Twist remains banned for own protection not for his rule breaking, Moony. Just to correct accuracy. I am tired of seeing that name used in unrelated conversations. It is most unkind.
>>7176I wonder who will remain when the unkind have been purged. Sounds lonely.
No.7210
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>>7209>Steam TwistNot sure precisely why he got banned here, but on Ponychan, it was because he was posting that he was killing rats with a katana while pretending that the rats were Ponychan users.
No.7211
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>>7210His own ignorance was his demise.
No.7214
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>>7212And you love perpetuating it.
No.7219
>>7214I did not raise corpses.
Your leader did that.
