/townhall/ - Townhall

>>12751
>>12753
My though is that viruses can evolve fast and it's tricky with all the news and thoughts of a conspiracy where the virus is designed on some way to disrupt the general public.

It's about as useful as insisting that ancient civilisations wouldn't have been able to accomplish anything if it weren't for extra terrestrial intervention.

Again?

>>12755
>the virus is designed on some way to disrupt the general public
The predominant view is that WIV was conducting legitimate research, but doing so at an insufficient BSL, and the virus accidentally escaped.

https://twitter.com/Ayjchan/status/1736866394921181199

https://nitter.net/Ayjchan/status/1736866394921181199

I think that the widespread claim that a secret cadre of elite Chinese individuals for the glory of the Chinese race (or elite Jewish individuals for the glory of the Jewish race... or... like any other conspiratory elite) developed COVID-19 in well-funded laboratories intentionally as a biological weapon to use against other ethnicities is something that is so dangerous and inherently suspect that I question whether or not free speech laws should cover it.

My view of the rising popularity of the bioweapon theory is that it's collective psychosis and ultimately madness not that different from other notions of panic that, in the past, caused supposed "witches" to be burned in public.

[[Please let nobody interpret this as a direct attack on the OP, who is not criticized here.]]

>>12759
>>12758
There's always a chance that something gets released by accident and people are doing research on these things.

Still, viruses occur, spread and evolve by natural means too. And that shouldn't be discarded.

At any rate, unless there is some special bio agent developped and spread by a hostile nation, this may serve well to remember that caution is required when handling bio agents, but it's kind of moot to point fingers at this point. Serves nothing but to divide nations further while it doesn't really help us contain this disease.

Again, if this was released by accident, from a scientific viewpoint, it's very important to learn how to prevent this from happening in the future.
As a political tool, it's just trash.

>>12760
>There's always a chance that something gets released by accident
Yeah, but less of a chance at BSL 3 or 4 than at BSL 2.  

>>12760
>it's very important to learn how to prevent this from happening in the future.
Ban GoF research or at the very least require it be done at BSL 4.

>>12761
If COVID-19 gets eventually confirmed to have escaped from a Chinese lab, how do you think people of Chinese ethnicity and/or nationality will be punished or will otherwise suffer as a result?

In your opinion, if it was up to you, how would you personally punish them?

<Assuming that, of course, you're limited to the bounds of modern politics and are prohibited from simply saying "a honest accident shouldn't result in collective punishment for anyone, ever".>

>>12762
Did anyone mention punishing all people with Chinese ethnicity for this?

Because that's a very problematic concept.

>>12762
Who would I punish then?  I'd start by throwing the book at Peter Daszak.  I'd want to see a few heads roll at WIV too.  Fauci should also be investigated for conflicts of interest.

>>12764
The Pol Pot solution, give all the intellectuals the bullet.

The theory that every actual biologist in the world took turns debunking like it's a drinking game?

Sure. It can do aaaanything you waaaaaant. You just have to beleeeeeve!

>>12764
I mean on paper I understand that a lot of really specific Jews and Chinese people both deserve actual legal punishment for breaking laws, but I don't know how I can see that practically happening without despairing bigotry and a witch hunt.

We have scientific evidence of misconduct by some very specific people at the Wuhan lab complex, according to my understanding. We don't have evidence of an international Jewish conspiracy to make biological weapons. These two concepts are not the same.

However, half of Americans and maybe half of the world believe them to be the same, and I don't know how to live in this reality. If half of your neighbors say that anybody who eats mustard is a child rapist, then what do you do if you eat mustard? And what do you do if you eat mustard and a random dude across the street who also eats mustard is attested for child abuse? What should happen?

>>12767
I also think that the claims about a lab leak happening is probably false. Although, it's not currently known for sure how the virus has evolved the past some years. We need more research.

>>12849
Wouldn't this be blameworthy only in terms of literally one person and not the collective moral failing of all Jews and Chinese people such that the two racial communities should be punished as a result, though?

Even if it is true, which it may very well not be?

Look, like, at some point, is it inevitable that we've not ethically advanced past the Middle Ages, in which every plague has to involve violence against minorities in order to "make it right" according to our society?

>>12852
>Wouldn't this be blameworthy only in terms of literally one person...?
There's probably a handful of people, not just Daszak.  Alternatively, some speculate that the CIA was involved (for the purpose of spying on Chinese bio research).

Nobody sane is suggesting that all ethnically Chinese or Jewish people should be punished for COVID-19.

Also, even if there is only a 10% chance that it was a lab leak, that still means that we should greatly reform lab security and maybe even completely ban GoF research.
https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/against-learning-from-dramatic-events

>>12758
The predominant view is that people who say it is man made have a political agenda that has nothing to do with epidemiology.

>>12858
Huh?  I'd guess that people who think it was a lab leak are more likely (than the general public) to support a ban on gain-of-function research.

>>12856
>>12857
Do you seriously not understand that if an evil secret Jewish racial conspiracy or an evil secret Chinese racial conspiracy truly existed as a matter of fact, with the theories about Covid-19 being a biological weapon being proven true and not left as mere speculation, then the implications to the regular life of Jews and Chinese people who're then justifiably (according to the American public) facing increased bigotry will be horrible?

Your detachment from reality is shocking to me.

As somebody who's personally descended from German Jews myself, I'm beyond tired of hearing about Jews controlling the media, Jews "grooming" children, Jews manipulating the financial industry, and that you're expecting me to just accept that Jews (with help from the Chinese race as well) invented COVID-19 too?

>>12860
> if an evil secret Jewish racial conspiracy or an evil secret Chinese racial conspiracy truly existed as a matter of fact, with the theories about Covid-19 being a biological weapon being proven true
That's so far out in left field that I'm at a loss for how to respond...

>>12860
>you're expecting me to just accept that Jews (with help from the Chinese race as well) invented COVID-19 too?
I never said anything about Jews "inventing" COVID-19!  Where are you even getting this from???

>>12861
>Where are you even getting this from?
From you and people like you. In a nutshell. Those of the center-right to right-wing side of the political spectrum. I'm confused as to why you're viewing this as "out in left field" when it's a mainstream social belief across the English-speaking nations. It's horrible, from my point of view, but I'm obviously biased against this popular belief since I'm neither a conservative nor center-right.

And the whole point of all of your posts on this website have been about evil individual creating COVID-19 deliberately, so I'm also confused as to why you don't seem to actually want those communities to get harmed since you're already starting off from your position of "I hate these people because they need to be punished for making us sick."

>>12759
Personally I consider such blind faith in the state that one would suggest claiming an intentional creation and spreading by state powers should be prohibited speech a far more dangerous fare.
Even assuming covid was 100% natural.

>>12861
>That's so far out in left field that I'm at a loss for how to respond...
I chose to ignore it because of that, but I suppose it's worth pointing out that someone who claims such absurdity as a genuine position of their opposition should most definitely not be in charge of what speech is and is not allowed.

>>12881
I just realized that isn't even a reply to the post I saw, but one well further in... alongside several attempts to make the same affirmation of Goat's position...

I suppose it's still worth saying, though now I can at least say with certainly it isn't mere ignorant belief or fanaticism, but a more clear-cut frankly attempt to demonize or otherwise paint as monster any who fall into the realm of doubting the agreed upon narrative, let alone whom fall into a generalized "opposition".
This kind of dehumanization is dangerous enough on its own, even without the expressed desire to remove basic fundamental rights from individuals.

>>12880
>>12881
>>12883
You're engaging in a rather odd kind of what amounts to a "totalitarian libertarianism" or some other sort of intellectual soufflé.

The people advocating for big government jackboots to stamp down upon their social opposition are politically right-wing, particularly when it comes to Jewish and Chinese scientists being targeted by demands that they be fined, put in jail, muzzled in terms of their free speech, or even assassinated.

The only blind faith in the state that I've ever seen comes from libertarians and/or conseratives looking for an activist state to destroy their supposed enemies such that said state can crush those who lobby against an official government ideology of conservativism and/or libertarianism. Such as governments preventing regular Average Joes from calling for the wearing of masks and such. And governments even preventing institutions from having masks worn inside of them, having social distance practices taking place inside of them, and so on. Hell, libertarians have been shrieking for blood as-is about destroying the lives of scapegoats viewed as being responsible for COVID-19 all across the media for years and years now.

It's weirdly ironic that libertarianism is supposed to be an ideology of freedom and yet it's demanded to be imposed upon people, by coercion, against their will. This applies not just to COVID-19 related issues but libertarians fighting to have gay marriage banned, libertarians claiming that gun rights should only apply to certain groups and not others, libertarians selectively advocating for higher taxes depending on the industry and/or business being gored, and the like. It's maddening. To be frank.

>>12893
I fail to see how daring to oppose a rather orwellian proposal that certain doubts or beliefs ought be muzzled and prohibited quantifies as "totalitarian".

But then, given the rest of your speil, I suppose it's rather clear you've little interest engaging in what I've actually said, when you could simply paint me in the brush of your hated enemy for daring to disagree with you. To leave aside the doubtful validity of your portrayal of that enemy, besides.

Claiming that libertarians oppose certain groups from owning guns, for instance.  An obvious abject absurdity that has no bearing whatsoever at all in reality.
Anyone with half a brain ought be able to point such a blatant falsehood out, that it marks you rather self-evidently an unserious individual reciting tribalism and not reality.