/townhall/ - Townhall

Are any of them actually pro-Hamas?  That feels like an incorrect framing of the situation, though I have seen people support pretty weird stuff before.

In any case, as much as people generally don't care about protests, their demands usually just amount to cutting support for Israel, and "spend less money" seems like something people might actually get behind?

How are we supposed to discuss this topic seriously?

Are you referring to specific "pro-Hamas agitators"? Or are you calling the broader pro-Palestine protestors all "pro-Hamas"?

Are you referring to any specific instances of Jewish students harassed? Or are you saying that any pro-Israel counter protestor getting yelled at is "harassment"?

>>13305
>Are any of them actually pro-Hamas
Looking at a map, consider the implications of "From the river to the sea".

>>13305
>their demands usually just amount to cutting support for Israel, and "spend less money"
Why would students risk arrest and spend precious time before final exams protesting if the only goal is something so insignificant?

>>13306
>Or are you calling the broader pro-Palestine protestors all "pro-Hamas"?
Of course not all of the protestors are pro-Hamas.  But a large fraction, perhaps even a majority, pretty clearly are rooting for Hamas in the current war between Hamas and Israel.
https://twitter.com/AGHamilton29/status/1785130424689123496

>>13306
>Are you referring to a specifc instance of Jewish students harassed?
https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1785072313643274304
https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/30/politics/democrats-biden-college-protests/index.html

>>13308
>But a large fraction, perhaps even a majority, pretty clearly are rooting for Hamas in the current war between Hamas and Israel.
Are they? I haven't seen any evidence of this. Maybe some are rooting for Hamas, sure. Maybe others are only incidentally pro-Hamas because that just happens to be the current governing body of Palestine.

And your tweet linked seems unrelated to anything to do with Hamas.

>https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1785072313643274304
This doesn't clarify if this was just a random Jewish student or if it was a counter-protestor.

>https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/30/politics/democrats-biden-college-protests/index.html
What's part of this article should I be looking at?

>>13307
>Why would students risk arrest and spend precious time before final exams protesting if the only goal is something so insignificant?

Protesting feels better than studying.

>>13305
>>13306

It's a deeply dishonest strawmaning of anti-zionist

>>13307
>Looking at a map, consider the implications of "From the river to the sea".

Another dishonest strawman. "From the river to the sea" doez not imply removing or eliminating Israelis, but rather reuniting Palestin and Israel, an expression for the desire to return to a pre-zinoist state of a integrated religious community.

>>13307
>Why would students risk arrest and spend precious time before final exams protesting if the only goal is something so insignificant

Considering that Israel's military is mostly supported with US funding and armed with US weapons, this war crime of collective punishment of Palestinians for the crimes of Hamas is something we are paying for. There is nothing insignificant about that.

>>13309
>Maybe others are only incidentally pro-Hamas because that just happens to be the current governing body of Palestine.
Yes.  To clear, most of these protestors are not explicitly citing Hamas as a cause they are protesting for.  But it is the equivalent of supporting "Germany" rather than "the Nazis" in WW2 -- no real difference in effect.

>What's part of this article should I be looking at?
The parts pointing out antisemitism in the protests.

>>13311
>an expression for the desire to return to a pre-zinoist state of a integrated religious community.
How did such an arrangement work out for the Jews in all other countries in the Middle East?

>>13311
>this war crime of collective punishment of Palestinians for the crimes of Hamas
Was the fire bombing of Dresden a war crime collectively punishing the Germans for the crimes of the Nazis?
Keep in mind that Hamas still has not surrendered or released all the hostages.

>>13312
>How did such an arrangement work out for the Jews in all other countries in the Middle East?

Historically, pretty good, whenever Jews were driven out of Spain in the 15th century or driven out of European countries in later centuries, they would be welcomed in the middle east. They didn't really have problems there until they tried to drive out the people already living there with the establishment of the state of Israel.

>Was the fire bombing of Dresden a war crime collectively punishing the Germans for the crimes of the Nazis?

Yes, absolutely. As were the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It's a war crime to collectively punish uninvolved civilians in a war.

Whether or not Hamas has or has not released all the hostages is irrelevant, Israel is bombing a lot of uninvolved Palestinians, including children.

I am opposed to my tax dollars funding that genocide. I don't care about Hamas, let them all die out for all I care, most Palestinians are uninvolved and already living in what is effectively an open air prison struggling to survive because of that.

>>13312

>Between 13-15 February 1945, over a thousand heavy bombers of the Royal Air Force and the U.S. 8th Air Force struck the city of Dresden in eastern Germany. On the night of 13 February, the British bombers created a firestorm which engulfed the city's center. The 8th Air Force's B-17s, sent to Dresden to bomb its rail yards, attacked over the next two days. The two waves of American bombers restarted fires throughout the city and added to the destruction. Until this point, Dresden, renowned for its cultural and historical significance and known to be crowded with refugees fleeing the Soviet advance, had largely escaped bombing by the Allies. Shortly after the bombs had fallen, controversies about the military necessity of the attack arose, which continue to this day. The number of civilian casualties also came into question, with claims made of up to a quarter million killed. In 2008, an independent historical commission formed by the city of Dresden concluded that approximately 25,000 lost their lives in the attack.

I'm gonna go with a yeah, that sounds pretty war crime-ish.

>>13313
This isn't the 15th century anymore.  What do you realistically think would happen to the Jews in present-day Israel if they didn't have their own state to protect themselves?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/poll-over-70-palestinians-still-maintain-hamas-correct-to-commit-oct-7-atrocities/

>>13313
>>13314
So it sounds like such "war crimes" aren't unusual and even the good guys commit them occasionally.  It would be nice if that weren't the case, but unfortunately we don't live in a utopia.

>>13315

>This isn't the 15th century anymore.  What do you realistically think would happen to the Jews in present-day Israel if they didn't have their own state to protect themselves?

And things were fine for middle eastern jews up till the establishment of Israel in the 20th century. While Hamas's actions are deplorable and disgusting, they didn't come from pure antisemitism alone, in fact much of current antisemitism in the middle east is rooted in the history of conflict rooted in the establishment of Israel as a state, especially given their history of atrocities commited against Palestinians in their bid to expand into Palestinian territory. At this point trying to justify it anymore is circular logic.

And It's not the least bit surprising that Israel's current campaign to continually bomb gaza and punish all Palestinians would lead many of them to decide that Hamas was justified, even if they weren't. Also I'd take what the israel times has to say about the war with a massive grain of salt given their blatantly obvious bias, they'd have all sorts of reasons to cherry pick info to report to the world to continue justifying this genocide.

>So it sounds like such "war crimes" aren't unusual and even the good guys commit them occasionally.

There's no quotation marks, collective punishment is prohibited by treaty in both international and non-international armed conflicts, more specifically Common Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention and Article 4 of the Additional Protocol II.

And no one who commits war crimes is "the good guys". War isn't glorious, it's a vicious cycle of atrocities, even when the initial reason for involvement is justified, and just because one side is in the defensive position it still doesn't justify killing of civillian individuals who are uninvolved just for sharing an identity or adjacent residency with the attacking side. Just because America and the allied powers were on the defensive side of World War II and justified in opposing the Nazi state and it's military as well as the Japanese state with it's imperial ambitions and it's military dictatorship, doesn't mean that whatever we did was now morally justified, especially not to any civilians within those states. The bombing of Dresden killed a ton of innocent German civilians uninvolved in either the war or the holocaust, including many children, who couldn't be involved and certainly had no choice to be where they were. Same for the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, tons of dead children who might have otherwise had no involvement in the war at all. It's why people who are gung ho about celebrating any war are completely fucking disgusting people. Hell, even in countries that are the aggresors but also has conscription even the soldiers forced to fight are innocent in my eyes (this applies to the IDF as well), but not volunteers obviously.

The protesters are, it seems, roughly divided into three distinct groups:

1)Those who want a ceasefire and then an end to the conflict such that, as per the peace efforts of those such as Presidents Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and Barack Obama, a free, independent, secular, and democratic Palestinian state exists side by side with Israel.

2)Those who want a ceasefire without clearly specifying a long-term peace solution (which may run the political spectrum from some kind of a binational power-sharing government to an internationally managed administration to whatever else), with may or may not include in the short term boycotting and otherwise isolating Israel to pressure against military actions (but likely does mean 'BDS' actions expand).

3)Those who want an elimination of the state of Israel and its people with the creation of a Hamas controlled Palestinian super-state that occupies all of current Israel as well as a bunch of other territories, which will be run under the extremist political doctrines of Arab ultranationalism and Islamic ultranationalism.

It's a mess because I'd say that positions 1) and 2) are garden variety opinions about current events that good people can disagree on. Yet 3) is clearly not just morally beyond the pale but is also absolutely antisemitic because it involves advocating for getting rid of an entire group of people wholesale who just so happen to be Jews as a collective matter, regardless of whatever an individual person says, does, and/or thinks. That sort of identity politics is horrid. It will lead to everybody eating everybody else alive if we let it.

Arguments about the Israeli government currently or in the past having done terrible things are beyond stupid if used as a justification for violence against Israelis as people. I'm somebody who was baptized as a Roman Catholic and confirmed as such. I have a ton of things that I disagree with the church with now. Yet I've nothing in common with some lunatic who hates Catholics ranting about how Vatican City should be bombed and the Pope assassinated.

For that matter, the United States of America is a basket case as far as a lot of moral issues, particularly when it comes to the U.S. federal government. That doesn't mean that the 9/11 attacks were ethically justified. Or that any other criminal form of depravity against Americans due to them just being Americans makes any sense at all.

It frankly pisses me off a lot that "Kill All the Transgender People", "Beat Up All the Gay People", "Wipe Out all the Disabled People", "Eliminate All the Feminists", "This Is Where the Woke People Go to Die", and other sorts of political extremist talking points that get recognized as quasi-genocidal madness receive condemnation from the exact same people who will see "Intifada Forever", "Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the Gas", "There Will Be an October 7th Every Year from Now On", "Kill All the Israelis", "Zionists Don't Deserve to Live", and so on as somehow acceptable.

Like FFS I personally can't stand Republican political icon and former Vice President Mike Pence, but when idiotic extremists in the U.S. started putting up signs saying "Hang Mike Pence" as a matter of ethical principle I felt horrified even though I agree with basically not a single one of his beliefs and have no respect for his personal character. Because fair is fair. Bad things are bad.

I really want to give up on this since Americans as a whole seem to be almost fatally brain poisoned by identity politics.

So, if you're a like an Arab-American Muslim, there's no inherent reason for you to care about the well-being of anybody who's an Orthodox Jew, a Roman Catholic, an Anglican Protestant, an atheist, or whomever else. Because you can rely on the unfortunately somewhat solid assumption that those peoples don't care about you even if they're your fellow citizens here. Or even if they're literal neighbors of yours. And, likewise, if you're Jewish in any sense than you've no reason to think that anybody from any other ethno-religious group in America gives a damn about your inherent human rights.

At the same time, though, my core instinct is to have a suicidally optimistic and irrationally idealistic view of human nature that in America we can be a multiracial, multiethnic, and multireligious society living side by side in harmony, and that both an Israeli state and a Palestinian state can likewise live side by side in harmony someday with the inherent right to self-determination that's God-given being respected for the peoples of both territories.

Who is daniel?

>>13319
>So, if you're a like an Arab-American Muslim, there's no inherent reason for you to care about the well-being of anybody who's an Orthodox Jew, a Roman Catholic, an Anglican Protestant, an atheist, or whomever else

You mean not even including religious commandments towards universal compassion?

>Because you can rely on the unfortunately somewhat solid assumption that those peoples don't care about you even if they're your fellow citizens here.

You mean not even including religious commandments towards universal compassion?


>And, likewise, if you're Jewish in any sense than you've no reason to think that anybody from any other ethno-religious group in America gives a damn about your inherent human rights

You mean not even including religious commandments towards universal compassion?

>At the same time, though, my core instinct is to have a suicidally optimistic and irrationally idealistic view of human nature that in America we can be a multiracial, multiethnic, and multireligious society living side by side in harmony, and that both an Israeli state and a Palestinian state can likewise live side by side in harmony someday with the inherent right to self-determination that's God-given being respected for the peoples of both territories.

For the most part, people live harmoniously with each other even when they aren't thinking about it. But all humans have a negativity bias, bad things are naturally more noticeable to us, and good, peaceful things are literally so unremarkable as to be unnoticeable.

What it really takes to make people hate each other to the point of violence and intolerance is intolerant people taking power of a state or other sufficiently large institution with the power to propogate hatred and division, especially as such hatreds protect the power of institutions that propogate that hatred.

Most people, regardless of the violent exceptions, would rather peacefully coexist with others and actively do strive to live by their religious commandments towards universal compassion and peaceful coexistence, which rarely draws attention anyway, because it's unremarkable

>>13320
He is this guy: https://twitter.com/growing_daniel/status/1785923027777277955

>>13316
That's a nice history lesson, but my question remains: What do you realistically think would happen to the Jews in present-day Israel if they lost having their own state to protect themselves?  I have my prediction, and it isn't pretty.

>Also I'd take what the israel times has to say about the war with a massive grain of salt
Here is the AP News (https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514) (possibly about a different poll):
"Despite the devastation, 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack, the poll indicated."

>>13316
>collective punishment
It's not really *punishment*.  Hamas chooses to hide among civilians (itself a war crime), leaving Israel with no choice except to conduct attacks that have high collateral damage.  If you want to blame anyone for the carnage in Gaza, blame Hamas.  They could have prevented it by surrendering and releasing the hostages.

>>13323
>Hamas chooses to hide among civilians (itself a war crime),

That is definitely also a war crime, yes!  But generally when someone takes hostages you don't retaliate by gunning down all the hostages.  Israel's actions could potentially bring a faster end to the conflict, but the cost of doing so is also potentially higher than letting it play out, not to mention that this allows Hamas to point at all the civilian casualties as a prime recruiting tool.  "You'll die anyway, join up."

>>13323
>Hamas chooses to hide among civilians (itself a war crime), leaving Israel with no choice except to conduct attacks that have high collateral damage.
Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on the planet. It is functionally impossible for them to exist in any place that isn't in some way adjacent to civilian infrastructure. And besides that, Israel just claims everything is Hamas anyway without compelling evidence. Every single residence, school, and hospital in Palestine is actually secretly a Hamas base, somehow, apparently. Not to mention that you know who else operates among civilians? The IDF. Israeli cities are just as densely populated, yet the IDF operates inside of the cities as well. Like, it seems kinda strange that the IDF just gets to have a military base inside Tel Aviv if that's really the issue.

>If you want to blame anyone for the carnage in Gaza, blame Hamas.  They could have prevented it by surrendering and releasing the hostages.
But more hostages were released and exchanged during the momentary ceasefire than during any time during any of the bombing. Plus there's no evidence that it would "prevent" anything if they surrender. The IDF seem to be completely gung-ho with killing civilians anyway, such as telling civilians to evacuate to an area and then bombing the path to that area as civilians evacuate.

Like... to anyone in Palestine, logically they'd think they'd be bombed whether or not they surrender or release hostages anyway. Like, if they're going to be bombed while they have hostages that the IDF supposedly wants to rescue unharmed... what makes them think they would be safer without hostages.

>>13324
>this allows Hamas to point at all the civilian casualties as a prime recruiting tool.  "You'll die anyway, join up."
That's what's insane about this all. Like, if I was some Palestinian civilian who just wanted to live in peace, and Israel killed my entire family in the name of "wiping out Hamas", I'm in danger of being killed myself if I stay, I'm in danger of being killed if I evacuate, and it didn't seem like any outside help was coming to stop Israel - why wouldn't I just want to support Hamas at that point.

>>13323
>That's a nice history lesson, but my question remains: What do you realistically think would happen to the Jews in present-day Israel if they lost having their own state to protect themselves?

Are you deliberately refusing to acknowledge the point? The point is that zionism is the source of conflict, antisemitism has not traditionally been a part of Islam. The entire reason that the Islamic world is anti-israel now is because of the long history of occupation and oppression of the Palestinian people.

And you're also deliberately avoiding the other point I was making. Protesters chanting "from the river to the sea" are not calling for the immediate elimination of Israel as a state but for the unification of Palestine and Israel, which does not imply how they want it to happen. Meaning it doesn't imply they want to eliminate Israeli people. Call them naive if you want to, but don't disengenously pretend that they're pro-hamas or pro-Israeli genocide.

>>13323
>It's not really *punishment*.  Hamas chooses to hide among civilians (itself a war crime), leaving Israel with no choice except to conduct attacks that have high collateral damage.

Bullshit. This is the reasoning of a abuser. The IDF's actions are their responsibility, Netanyahu had a choice he wasn't forced to kill children, he had plenty of other options, including more surgical operations to rescue hostages and assassinate Hamas leaders than carpet bombing innocents effectively being used as hostages, but he used Oct 7 as a pretence to finally wipeout people zionist have been trying to wipe out for decades. It's still a form of collective punishment, Israel is trying to punish Hamas by directly killing those that Hamas are most directly connected with, regardless of if those individuals have an responsibility for anything Hamas did and regardless if they have the mere opinion that Hamas's actions on Oct 7 were justified, if they were uninvolved, they were uninvolved and are still innocent.

I just genuinely cannot give less of a damn.

Two religious groups complaining about stuff happening absolute ages away that shouldn't have anything to do with me.
Both of whom I find major issues with their ideologies, and neither of whom would have any allegiances to me in my distant land were something to happen here.

Perhaps it's naive. Especially considering my elected officials love to spend my stolen money to fund these foreign lands. But I just can't bring myself to care about this feud in the slightest.
At least as far as these protests go.

I don't really feel like stepping into the hornet's nest that is MiddleEastern conflicts here.

But I guess it's ironic that literal neonazi groups can walk through the streets chanting to gas the Jews and people go "Well, we should respect their right to voice their opinion and maybe we should take their input properly."
But when a group of students protest the Israel aggression in Gaza, suddenly we're cheering for the state troopers to go Tiananmen on the lot.

The people who actually are pro-Hamas can rest easy in their performative virtue, as Hamas is laughing at them and all the dead Palestinians their systematic methods incurs.

Hamas knows what they're doing. They know keeping civilians in the buildings they operate militarily out of is going to get said civilians killed, because the building is now a military target which Israel is going to bomb. So Hamas has a vested interest in making sure more Gazans are killed because it's good for their PR.

The most likely outcome of all this in my estimation is Gaza gets flattened and the surviving population displaced. I doubt Egypt will take them in and I doubt Jordan would either, so they might be forcibly relocated into the West Bank.

This is one of the few public news pieces that I've seen which gets into detail and seems to be reasonably even-handed on the matter:

>

Reminder that Netanyahu publicly and openly diverted funds to Hamas to weaken the rule of law in Palestine.

>>13324
Yes, there is definitely room to question Israel's military strategy.  My point mainly is that Israel isn't out of line w.r.t. past wars.  

>>13326
>It is functionally impossible for them to exist in any place that isn't in some way adjacent to civilian infrastructure.
If Hamas isn't capable of existing without committing war crimes, then maybe it shouldn't exist at all.

>>13326
>you know who else operates among civilians? The IDF.
The IDF doesn't operate from tunnels underneath civilians.  They don't have headquarters in the basements of hospitals.

>>13326
>>If you want to blame anyone for the carnage in Gaza, blame Hamas.  They could have prevented it by surrendering and releasing the hostages.
Early on, Israel offered to refrain from total war against Hamas if Hamas returned the hostages.  Hamas refused.  If you knock over a hornets' nest, don't be surprised if you get stung.

And just today, Hamas prevented aid trucks from getting through to Gaza by shooting rockets at the crossing point.

>>13327
>Call them naive if you want to
Yes, I do think calling for the dissolution of Israel and expecting it to work out fine for the Jews there is quite naive.

https://twitter.com/AGHamilton29/status/1787229073124560897

>>13342
Correction: apparently the correct translation is "death to Zionists" rather than "death to Jews".

https://twitter.com/Matzan481_/status/1787252168371687605

>>13341
>If Hamas isn't capable of existing without committing war crimes, then maybe it shouldn't exist at all.
>>13315
>So it sounds like such "war crimes" aren't unusual and even the good guys commit them occasionally.  It would be nice if that weren't the case, but unfortunately we don't live in a utopia.
You aren't even anti war crimes, so get the fuck out of here with this dishonest bullshit, jesus lmao.

Also recommended:

>

>>13321
>You mean not even including religious commandments towards universal compassion?
>[Spammed 3 Times]
Do you have even the slightest understanding of the real world and how religious traditions tend to be large, diverse mosaics of very different people with very different morals?

To pick a semi-random example, the Scorecard Killer (the serial murder born Randy Kraft who got his title after keeping a decorated paper list of his victims) and Fred Rogers (of Mister Rogers' Neighborhood and other programs) were popularly known as devout figures in the U.S. Presbyterian Church.

I was going to type more, but to be honest the general ignorance that you've been displaying this whole thread pisses me off to where I should stop before this just goes into personal insults.

>>13345
I'm against *actual* war crimes such as raping and torturing random civilians, using civilians as human shields, etc..  If you're going to characterize attacks that have nonzero collateral damage as a "war crime", well, then I'm not opposed to such "war crimes", because I don't think they really constitute actual war crimes.

I do wonder what Israel's endgame is for Gaza...  Will Israel seek to exercise direct authority over Gaza?  Install a puppet gov't?  Something else?  Will UNRWA be expelled?

>>13350
>I'm not opposed to such "war crimes", because I don't think they really constitute actual war crimes.
This is the most insanely biased position anyone could possibly take in anything. There is absolutely zero reason anyone should discuss this entire topic with you.

Love to conveniently condemn Hamas for every single war crime it has ever committed, but then just conveniently "not be opposed to" the war crimes Israel commits because you conveniently just don't think those war crimes are real war crimes.

"I'm against *actual* war crimes, which of course I get to decide what are *actual* war crimes and what are *fake* war crimes." Like, okay, good talk. What possible discussion could even be had here? What possible way forward could any talk happen? Entirely pointless.

>>13356
>"I'm against *actual* war crimes, which of course I get to decide what are *actual* war crimes and what are *fake* war crimes."
Looking at a fairly neutral source (Wikipedia), I see several clear war crimes committed by Hamas (hostage taking, rape).  Some of Israel's actions are in a gray zone where one might argue, but nothing that is clearly a war crime.

>>13357
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes#2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war

Every single entry here is "a gray zone"?

>>13358
Okay, looking at that, I see some allegations (not previously mentioned in this thread) that, if true, would be Israeli war crimes.

>>13360
Alrighty, that's fair enough then. Acknowledging that side of the conflict at least is all I'd wanted at least.

idk. but "people are people," as it says in the song.

Hmm, not sure what to make of this.  I guess both sides have some bad people.