/townhall/ - Townhall

Looks roughly like a coin toss, with Trump having a slight edge.

Looks like there is still a 6% chance that Biden gets replaced by someone better.

>>13409
Depends on how 'fortified' the election is.

In a fair election, seems like Trump'd win in a landslide.
Nobody can tell me Biden's presidency resulted in any improvement in their lives. Everything's more expensive, from gas to food. Life's only gotten harder with him in office.

>>13414
The problem is unmarried, childless women.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/1787170/no-one-benefits-more-from-the-destruction-of-the-american-family-than-the-democratic-party/

>>13414
My boss had been paying off his student loans for over 30 years, and would have been paying them until the day he died if not for Biden. He even got back a decent bit for what he'd overpaid over the years. No other president, not even Obama, would do that for the working class.

It's a 50% versus 50% situation. A coin flip. Anybody who tells you that there's a big, significant advantage on one side is clearly lying.

As far as who should win, America has been in financial decline, social decline, and foreign policy decline for about two decades now. Biden is horrible on all of those. Trump is also terrible on all of those, except that he wants to declare himself dictator and end liberal democracy in America as a concept. And I guess I'll vote for Biden.

We need somebody like a President Bernie Sanders. Somebody who would expand labor union rights, wages for working class people, Medicare services, Medicaid services, Social Security services, and so on. Not a Biden Presidency that's allowing all of that to wane. And also not a Trump Presidency leading to not just abolishing Medicare, Social Security, etc cetera but otherwise a government viciously declaring war on poor people, disabled people, and elderly people on behalf of big businesses and the wealthiest Americans.

It's also nightmarish to me that the Trump types are openly rooting for naked violence against Jews, gay people, transgender people, disabled people, and other unpopular minorities in order to "cleanse" America of these supposedly "inferior" groups. If Trump wins, I'm emigrating to another country (or maybe committing suicide if it really comes to it) in order to avoid having my corpse swinging from the nearest lamppost. Since we all know what Trump types want. I wouldn't be surprised if this happens, though, since even eight decades after Hitler, the Nazis, and the Holocaust a great number (maybe half) of Americans are as much bigoted sociopaths as those with jackboots in WWII.

Still, hope springs eternal. Maybe if Trump loses twice the Republicans could stop being the violent ultranationist faction it is now and go back to being the tolerant and pluralistic party of the 00s and 10s under McCain and Romney. I really hope. I want to go back. I loathe what I'd have to say to the 90s me that there's nothing but pain I the future.

>>13420
>Trump types are openly rooting for naked violence against Jews
u wot m8?  It is the far leftists who are celebrating Oct 7, not Trump!

>>13419
Oh, yes, and people like my sister whom had deigned to go to a less prestigious school, carefully manage their finances, save money, and pay through the entire thing with cash after a massive pile of work? They're just entirely fucked over.

Leaving aside the hilarity of presuming the "working class" of America are predominantly those who're dealing with college debts anyways, as opposed to those whom for a variety of reasons including price simply went straight into the job market.
I've not met many ship fitters with college degrees, I've got to tell you.

You'll excuse me if I don't find all that grand a maneuver in aiding a portion of Americans who luckily haven't paid off their debts get that added on to the national debt instead.
The percentages of those who've gone to college is already a minority. How much of that remaining percentage went to affordable community colleges and avoided debt receiving absolutely nothing for their efforts, I wonder, versus those whom Biden's given a payout?

>>13420
>except that he wants to declare himself dictator and end liberal democracy in America as a concept.
lolno
Obviously not.

>on behalf of big businesses and the wealthiest Americans.
Funny you mention those things, because they, unlike the rest of us, don't pay a dime for these things like social security, medicare, and so on.

I am the one who gets my taxes spiked over this lot.
I've already a hard enough time of it. Putting food on my plate, paying for my rent, and keeping my car in basic function instead of broken on the street is already hard enough, as is.
If my taxes go higher, I am liable to be homeless.
And raising the wages won't do anything to fix that ,either. These corporations will always throw that onto the backs of the consumers.

> openly rooting for naked violence against Jews
That's the left.
>order to "cleanse" America of these supposedly "inferior" groups
That isn't a position that exists outside your head.

>>13429
And there it is, the same absolute non-argument every time! It's honestly hilarious how predictable it is when it literally doesn't mean anything, or work on any level whatsoever.

>>13433
Huh?

>>13433
>nonargument
I'll keep it shorter for you, to better adapt to your evident mental capacity;

A minority of Americans go to college.
A portion of this choose cheaper community colleges or utilize scholarships to avoid and pay off their debts.
Ergo; Forgiving college debt does not significantly benefit American working class as a whole.

Do you need me to use even smaller words by chance? Or is this good enough for you?

I thought this was ponychan, not /pol/

>>13436

No, this is Ponyville.

You lost?

Also if this was /pol/ they would be saying that Trump should win rather than my own megamind centrist take that both Trump and Biden are bad and that America deservers better

>>13439
>>13436
It's funny.
One side is filled with liberal minded LGBTQ folks.
And then this side is pretty hard core Trumpian(?)

I suppose /pony/ and /townhall/ have their own posters and neither really venture to the other side.

People act like this is the first time the country has been divided.

>>13415
Having kids isn't going to fix anything

>>13445
>People act like this is the first time the country has been divided.

Until right now the country has been completely civil, I assure you.

>>13440
>I suppose /pony/ and /townhall/ have their own posters and neither really venture to the other side.

This board exists literally because one half of the site was tired of dealing with the other half.

>>13435
>Ergo; Forgiving college debt does not significantly benefit American working class as a whole.

Would anything feasible accomplish that in the first place?  I don't think it's bad to help minorities.  Debt forgiveness did absolutely help people who were in debt, I don't know if there's a strong argument against that.  Almost everything the government does ultimately helps a particular portion of the country.

>>13430
>I am the one who gets my taxes spiked over this lot.
>I've already a hard enough time of it. Putting food on my plate, paying for my rent, and keeping my car in basic function instead of broken on the street is already hard enough, as is.
>If my taxes go higher, I am liable to be homeless.

By exactly how much did your taxes spike?  I hadn't personally noticed any change, nor heard of any general increases.  I have to imagine that if food and shelter are a struggle, you're in a lower bracket that practically isn't paying taxes at all.

>>13429
>Oh, yes, and people like my sister whom had deigned to go to a less prestigious school, carefully manage their finances, save money, and pay through the entire thing with cash after a massive pile of work? They're just entirely fucked over.

Fucked over how?  It sounds like she's doing fine?

>>13420
>If Trump wins, I'm emigrating to another country (or maybe committing suicide if it really comes to it) in order to avoid having my corpse swinging from the nearest lamppost.

But he did win and that didn't happen.  You're both still here and still alive.

>>13420
>As far as who should win, America has been in financial decline, social decline, and foreign policy decline for about two decades now.

I'm gonna go on record as saying that this is not true.  I think a grand majority of the country is not only comfortable, but largely unaffected by anything a president might do.  30% of Americans chose to simply not vote at all in any recent election.  The people who win elections tend to be very centrist, overall.  Biden is about as status quo as you can get, and as much as Trump likes to talk about revolution (without calling it that) he had his presidency and nothing happened.  I don't think this is some failure of the system, but actually an accurate reflection of what the average person wants (or at least is willing to tolerate in order to not have to put forth effort to change).

>>13450
>By exactly how much did your taxes spike?  I hadn't personally noticed any change, nor heard of any general increases.  I have to imagine that if food and shelter are a struggle, you're in a lower bracket that practically isn't paying taxes at all.
It's the inflation 'tax' --- not formally a tax, but it can act like one in some aspects.

>>13450
>But he did win and that didn't happen.  You're both still here and still alive.

I'm only alive because Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security exist and are robust.

If the Republicans succeed in implementing their agenda to abolish those welfare programs, because their right-wing ideology says that downtrodden people who can't afford expensive things like cancer treatments should die from those diseases, then healthcare becomes a commercial luxury good that you don't deserve if you don't possess the $$$.

And then I either leave or die.

This isn't hyperbole. If you're an American who's interpretation of capitalism is that people who can't buy medicines shouldn't get those medicines, then you actively must accept that your beliefs cause immense suffering. This is how reality works.

If I hadn't personally have had cardiovascular surgery paid for by U.S. government welfare in the past few years, then I would be in a coffin. Again, this isn't hyperbole. I can show you my hospital documents.

Now watch as Trump-voting /townhall/ posters tell me that I'm a disgusting subhuman leech who stole their taxpayer dollars and that they wish I had died instead... yeah... I've heard their political talking points before and will hear them again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again... I'm a Satanic baby-eating Marxist-Leninist who's robbing taxpayers blind... I suppose...

>>13452
In some ways, I think it's kind of like creationism vs evolution.

It's perfectly fine to criticize concepts of evolution, but just debunking it and put creationism forward as the valid alternative is useless.

If they want to criticise social programs for missing the mark or for all the flaws they have that's one thing. But not iffering any decent alternative or creating situations where people will be worse off us not really okay.

>>13450
>Would anything feasible accomplish that in the first place?
Sure. Loads of stuff. Getting prices on fuel, for instance, would help massively. Same for lower grocery prices. And of course, a better economy overall tends to rotate to a seller's market when it comes to labor, which also helps massively.

>  Almost everything the government does ultimately helps a particular portion of the country.
Sure, but we're talking the 'working class' here, not just anyone.

>By exactly how much did your taxes spike?
As >>13451 said, it's inflation, mostly.
it functions the same way. My wages did not increase, but my money is significantly worth less now. Inflation skyrocketed to a good 9%. That made everything way more expensive.

>Fucked over how?  
She worked to the bone to pay 10k$ at a less prestigious university.

Do I really need explain how much that sucks, when she could've gone to a high-end university, got a prestigious degree, enjoyed college life stress free, and not have had to pay a dime?

>>13452
> If you're an American who's interpretation of capitalism is that people who can't buy medicines shouldn't get those medicines, then you actively must accept that your beliefs cause immense suffering
The reverse is also true, though.

Nothing in life is free. if you insist the state should pay for these things, you must likewise accept that people're going to ultimately be forced at gunpoint to fork over what the have, to get you that.

The emotional appeal to some petty morality doesn't really work, when ultimately you're needing to coerce through violence the means to fund that welfare.

>>13456
It's actually incredibly easy for me to have an absolute moral standard of "nobody should die painfully of cancer in my country" and then apply that universally to all citizens. Same as "rape is bad", "murder is bad", "child molestation is bad", or any other absolute ethical standard applied as a categorical imperative to all citizens.

I'd actually argue that the best moral and legal principles are those based on unconditional black-versus-white lines such as "No Driving Over 45 MPH" signs on roads.

I would view things such as cancer diagnoses, child molestation incidents, maniacs driving 95 MPH on roads, and so on as inherent problems that all reasonable citizens would oppose and all can be united against.

I understand that this is hard for conservatives and libertarians who view everything through identity politics based on race, religion, and so on to understand, but for me as a Kantian ethical universalist I see morality as not justified by the ends and also morality as absolute for all citizens regardless of their identities.

Bad things are bad. Stop bad things. Don't do bad things. The end.

>>13457
>It's actually incredibly easy for me to have an absolute moral standard of "nobody should die painfully of cancer in my country"
Why would you say that people who die painfully of cancer are immoral?
It seems you are confusing axiology and ethics.  (Pic related.) https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/28/contra-askell-on-moral-offsets/
Dying painfully of cancer is axiologically bad, but it doesn't entail a moral/ethical defect.

>I would view things such as cancer diagnoses, child molestation incidents, maniacs driving 95 MPH on roads, and so on as inherent problems that all reasonable citizens would oppose
One of those things is very much unlike the others!  If a patient has treatable cancer, it is generally a good thing, not a bad thing, for a doctor to diagnose him with cancer, so that treatment can begin.  If the cancer is left undiagnosed, then it can metastasize and eventually kill him.

>>13457
>libertarians who view everything through identity politics based on race, religion, and so on
There are approximately zero such people.  Libertarians view people as individuals, not collectively.

>>13459
I would view the Christian capitalist view held in America that sick people, especially disabled people, immorally suck up wealth and resources from superior categories of people that Jesus Christ has bestowed economic success upon as a being totally false ethical standard. I also view rationalists as being evil since they similarly divide humanity into categories of who has more utilitarian worth to the broad economy and judge people as such, even if they're atheists who think darwinist evolution determines superior status and not God.

Particularly the Christian capitalist view that parents should regard disabled children as a an unfair burden making their lives more difficult such that those children never should've born, since their lives infect the happiness of biologically superior human beings. Or the rationalist parents who are almost entirely the same. To me, this is child abuse. Don't put this on your kids.

These mindsets I find totally disgusting and wrong even if they are currently inherent in the DNA of American society.

If you believe that a disabled person dying of cancer should end up in a coffin because your personal politics make you paying for their treatment impossible, then this is a matter of morality and axiology both. Obviously. Same as any other question about political/religious/social organization in local government.

I don't care that rationalists tell me that I shouldn't have been born. I was born. I exist. I have rights. Even if utilitarianism says that I don't.

Generally:

I believe that American citizens by inherently existing have certain basic worth and value, so the rationalist idea that it would be okay for a U.S. State to murder 300 people in one city today in order to save in the future 301 people in another city someplace else doesn't work for me. To me, 'the ends justify the means' and 'the utilitarian maximums are the only things that matter' don't work. I oppose rationalism and hope to see it end during my lifetime. To be, 'ends and means both matter'.

>>13457
>It's actually incredibly easy for me to have an absolute moral standard of "nobody should die painfully of cancer in my country"
Sure.
But when you mandate the state take money for that purpose, you're now unable to make a blanket statement of "theft is bad" or "coercion of labor is bad", as you've necessarily accepted one form thereof.

>>13460
>I would view the Christian capitalist view held in America...
That isn't a view actually held, though.

That's your own creation.
It doesn't exist in the real world.
Nobody considers people who are ill to be immoral for being ill.
Especially not Christians, who, following the teachings of Jesus Christ, find charity and compassion to those who suffer such ailments an absolute good deed.

>Particularly the Christian capitalist view that parents should regard disabled children as a an unfair burden making their lives more difficult such that those children never should've born,
Again; This is simply not the case.

Christians by large oppose abortion. They consider such acts reprehensible. Regardless of the child's potential issues.

Bluntly put, it seems obvious you're letting your own personal biases run rampant.
You've got a hatred for Christianity, for whatever reason, that influences your thoughts to the point of absurdity.
Your own personal bigotry is no excuse, however. Your unfounded hatred has caused you to ignore abject reality.

>>13462
>>13463
It's difficult to respond to you when all of your statements are factually incorrect in a clear-cut level without having any relationship to reality, with you appearing genuinely less sane than people I meet who think that the Earth is flat.

I suppose all I can say is that I hope in the future Christians will stop assaulting people like me as is currently happening, even though I expect to be violently attacked in person once again sooner or later by Christians due to their Christian beliefs before such a social cange happens. Someday, the rivers of blood caused by the faith will run dry. I hope to live to see that day.

>>13485
I hope you one day reconsider your bigotry before you end up hurting someone.

>>13492
You've got it exactly backwards.

American Christians are the ones screaming their lungs out about how absolutely everybody who isn't them is hated by God and must burn in a lake of fire after death, so, for example, all of the young Jewish children who passed away in the Holocaust are covered in flames as we speak. If you don't accept Jesus Christ as your savior in the most narrow and strict way obeying certain edicts, then it's the forever badplace for you. No way out. No peace. No compassion. No nothing.

In contrast, if you're, say, a traditional Jewish-American citizen then you believe that all fundamentally righteous people of all religious backgrounds have peace and comfort after death.

>>13495
Pretty sure it's the far left chanting 'death to all jews' these days.
And they're not really all that big on Christianity.

>>13495
Conflating what groups like the NIFB say and painting every denomination found in the States as that is wrong.
I get you have religious trauma, but you need to stop this nonsense.

>>13436
>if I don't agree with you then this place is /pol/

You know for as much as people shit on /pol/, it's a wonder that those opinions seem to be sprouting up in places all over the internet outside of /pol/. It's almost like people are getting sick of radical leftist ideals