No.14651[View All]
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It looks like Trump won.
96 posts and 26 image replies omitted. Click reply to view. No.14760
>>14743War produces opportunity for economic growth. In a way, Israel and America wanting to fuck up Palestien is a means of getting money through extortion and violence
The jews weren't content with stealing all of that land after the second world War from innocent people, and they want to steal more
No.14762
>>14758Right? Because these aren't contradictory? You can just look at some of the actions under Obama, irrespective of media narrative.
In fact, if anything, the media hated speaking ill of Obama. He got away with some insane stuff, because of it.
The near constant dronestrikes were probably the most infamous example. Then again, dems and republicans are rather unified when it comes to warhawk behavior.
No.14766
>>14755Sure, because autistic kids who already have a hard time fitting in haven't been getting pressured into transitioning as the solution to all their problems by those who promote transgenderism.
Or the "gender confused" adolescents who in earlier times would have very likely developed into gay/lesbian individuals who are now being selected out and put on a one way track to infertility. But let's be honest, the T in LGBT trumps everything else. Who cares about the LGB when you can add another case study to the T pile to support the personal sociopolitical whims of the morally bankrupt? It's not like it's their own lives they are ruining. After all it's just someone else's kid becoming a statistic.
No.14767
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>>14766>It's not like it's their own lives they are ruining.Yeah, of course, this definitely doesn't apply to you, though, right?
You get to make yourself feel better that you're saving someone else's kid from "transgenderism" without having to find out if you're actually ruining their lives or not.
No.14770
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I've got the best bag, folks, the best bag, believe me! What’s that sound? It’s fantastic! I brought out the big guns, and everyone’s sitting down, okay? Look, I've got things now, things I never had before, I can brag—who wouldn’t? Got my lady a Louis bag, let me tell you, she's bragging like never before! And a Birkin too, she’s the queen of brats now! Now I’m in the best club, looking fabulous in a new bag! When I show up, you better believe things get wild, folks! Spin it around, baby, show them how it’s done! Tell the DJ to turn it up, let’s hear that sound! A Boogie is in the mix, always with the best stuff, unlike the others—so boring! When I roll in, it’s like vroom-vroom, only the best—can’t get enough! I rose up from the bottom, everybody knows it! Introduced the love of my life to my connections, now she thinks she’s on top—so true! First time I hit her up, no reply—can you believe it? Then saw her in the club, and I made my move—big league!
No.14772
>>14771>Like, is the sterilization the primary hangup?Yes. Foisting irreversible necessarily life-altering
elective procedures on those who legally can't consent and who can't fully grasp the magnitude of what they are deciding and how it will impact the entire rest of their lives is medical malpractice. We don't even let minors get tattoos, or smoke, or drink. Yet people are perfectly willing to let them choose to sterilize themselves and encourage them forward on a path to do so. Madness.
No.14775
>>14772>We don't even let minors get tattoos, or smoke, or drink.We probably should, though. I mean, the smoking and drinking happens regardless, but the tattoos should really be allowed.
You wanna talk weird shit we allow children to do, we gotta mention college, right?
No.14776
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>>14774>It starts with puberty blockers and hormone therapies which already result in irreversible changesYour "and" is kind of suspect, because they don't do the same thing and don't give the same results and can't be started at the same time.
How old does a child have to be in order to take hormone therapies? Are they given any information on this stuff? Are the parents involved? Does the child have to go through any amount of psychological evaluation and therapy beforehand?
No.14777
>>14775At what age should children be allowed to get face tattoos? I would then extrapolate that to all tattoos.
Most people are already adults by the time they enter college.
>>14776>How old does a child have to be in order to take hormone therapies?It depends on the jurisdiction.
>Are they given any information on this stuff?Yes. Whether it's adequate and whether a child can fully comprehend the implications is the real question.
>Are the parents involved?Ideally. But then again, leftists are generally pushing for kids to be able to undergo these procedures even when the parents are opposed, so where does that leave us?
>Does the child have to go through any amount of psychological evaluation and therapy beforehand?In theory. Though there have been documented instances of ideologues rubber stamping the process in the name of promoting transgenderism.
I am not saying that transgender people do not exist. And adults are free to do as they please. But when it comes to erring one way or the other in regards to children, I will always choose to err on the side of caution and oppose defaulting to the path of practical irreversibility.
No.14778
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>>14777>It depends on the jurisdiction.Any examples? It seems like it's an important consideration that we shouldn't leave to a vague "it depends".
>Yes. Whether it's adequate and whether a child can fully comprehend the implications is the real question.It took me a lot of digging to get to this if it was "the real question."
>But then again, leftists are generally pushing for kids to be able to undergo these procedures even when the parents are opposedI'm unaware of this. I've seen people say that, say, teachers shouldn't necessarily need to "out" a trans child to their parents regarding social transition/experimentation. And I've also seen things regarding abuse - also in regards to social transition - such as treating children like crap if they even so much as indicate questioning their gender, but that would also fall under like abuse if they questioned their sexuality.
>Though there have been documented instances of ideologues rubber stamping the process in the name of promoting transgenderism.If they have, then the proper response would be to demand better scrutiny regarding this, rather than just knee-jerk stop everything.
No.14779
>>14778>Any examples? It seems like it's an important consideration that we shouldn't leave to a vague "it depends".Specifically with regards to
hormone therapies, as young as 12 in the US but generally 16 (and banned in some states), 16 in the UK, 16 in Germany, not allowed for minors in Portugal. Puberty blockers start much earlier generally.
I'm not reading statutes. I'm just pulling this from Google's curated search results. You can Google this stuff yourself if you like.
That said, for my argument, the exact age doesn't matter. If 16 isn't an adult, then they can't consent. If you want 16 to be the age of majority then by all means make that argument.
>It took me a lot of digging to get to this if it was "the real question."We've been saying this entire time that the irreversibility and/or sterilization of those who can't legally or morally consent is the issue. Being able to comprehend the implications of one's life-altering actions is literally the foundation of informed consent. So yes, it is "the real question" as we've been saying all along. No one cares if adults want to undergo these procedures.
>I'm unaware of this. I've seen people say that, say, teachers shouldn't necessarily need to "out" a trans child to their parents regarding social transition/experimentation. And I've also seen things regarding abuse - also in regards to social transition - such as treating children like crap if they even so much as indicate questioning their gender, but that would also fall under like abuse if they questioned their sexuality.Are the parents supposed to be involved or aren't they? And if the parents disagree, should the child be transitioned or not?
>If they have, then the proper response would be to demand better scrutiny regarding this, rather than just knee-jerk stop everything.You can't stop ideologues who will necessarily insert themselves into positions where they can continue the process. And for those who are improperly transitioned as a consequence, it's already too late. So yes I fall on the side of knee-jerk stop everything. It is better for no one to be transitioned during adolescence than for some fraction of (would-be) non-trans people to be transitioned in error. People who are not transitioned as adolescents can start the process later, whereas those who are improperly transitioned are stuck with the results from before they were able to provide informed consent.
No.14780
>>14779>Specifically with regards to hormone therapies, as young as 12 in the US but generally 16 (and banned in some states)>I'm not reading statutes. I'm just pulling this from Google's curated search results. You can Google this stuff yourself if you like.Well, I'm not familiar with other countries, and this thread is specifically about Trump/US, so I'm not interested in those countries tbqf
And I did my own Googling which said generally that hormones can be given between 16 and 18 depending on the state, and
generally seem to require parental consent. I have no idea where "12 year olds can start HRT" comes from, so you'll have to show me that one because I'll be curious.
But also, I doubt that most 16 year olds get it like the same day as their birthday. And from my understanding of hormone therapies, any sort of irreversible sterilization doesn't happen until like.. taking them for a generally extended period of time. It's not like kids decide one day they're going to take a couple of estrogen pills and then become permanently infertile immediately. It's just literally not what happens.
>We've been saying this entire time that the irreversibility and/or sterilization of those who can't legally or morally consent is the issue.Yeah. And that's literally the issue
is that you've been saying it. It honestly comes across as exceedingly dishonest. This entire thread is like using the most alarming and scary language imaginable, despite the entire thing being extremely nuanced and having several considerations from every angle.
>No one cares if adults want to undergo these procedures.I can't help but just laugh at this, because I've seen the ways conservatives talk about transgender adults.
>Are the parents supposed to be involved or aren't they?Social transition and medical transition are entirely different things?!? Maybe if we stopped pretending like they were the same thing then this question would be way easier to answer.
>And if the parents disagree, should the child be transitioned or not?This seems like a made up hypothetical so I don't know???
>You can't stop ideologues who will necessarily insert themselves into positions where they can continue the process.Yes you can???
>So yes I fall on the side of knee-jerk stop everything. It is better for no one to be transitioned during adolescence than for some fraction of (would-be) non-trans people to be transitioned in error.But you've already muddied this entire fucking thing up by conflating social transitioning, puberty blockers, and full-on hormone replacement therapy.
>non-trans people to be transitioned in errorHow often does this happen?? What's the percentage, give it to me. Or is this a case of not caring how many trans youth lives you destroy in order to save even a single life like a noble soul?
No.14781
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I don't know about HRT, puberty blockers, etc, but I got a tattoo when I was 16. That shit is for life.
Some kids even get immancipated at an early age, and some even get married. The argument always boils down to whether or not a child is capable of fully understanding the ramifications and is responsible enough to make decisions for their selves. I mean fuck, the age of consent is like 16 in some states.
Ultimately the issue boils down to parenting. I don't know how it would work, but I think parents/future parents should be required to take a class if they have a child/are planning to have children.
You should have a license for it. Thats just how irresponsible most people are, and unfortunately it affects those around them that want nothing to do with children
No.14782
>>14780>And I did my own Googling which said generally that hormones can be given between 16 and 18 depending on the state, and generally seem to require parental consent. I have no idea where "12 year olds can start HRT" comes from, so you'll have to show me that one because I'll be curioushttps://www.plannedparenthood.org/blog/i-want-to-transition-how-old-do-you-have-to-be-to-get-hrt"Some health care providers require both parental consent and a minimum age requirement for people younger than 18. For example, some Planned Parenthood health centers only provide HRT to patients who have parental consent and are at least 16 years old, while others only provide HRT for ages 18+. Other doctors may prescribe hormones to patients who are 12 and up with parental consent.">any sort of irreversible sterilization doesn't happen until like.. taking them for a generally extended period of time.Once you start, you are on that path, even if it takes a while to reach the end. Getting off isn't as simple as deciding you've changed your mind, and at that point, a child has undergone irreversible effects.
>Yeah. And that's literally the issue is that you've been saying it.Should I just pretend that informed consent isn't the most important issue?
>It honestly comes across as exceedingly dishonest.I think pretending that everything is reversible and going with a medicate first, ask questions later approach is exceedingly dishonest.
>This entire thread is like using the most alarming and scary language imaginable, despite the entire thing being extremely nuanced and having several considerations from every angle.We did just have someone accusing us of being Nazis and wanting to genocide multiple groups who have literally nothing in common, all because some of us supported Trump in the election. So yes, there is quite a bit of alarmist and scary language in this thread.
>I can't help but just laugh at this, because I've seen the ways conservatives talk about transgender adults.Some, sure. Most don't care what people do on their own time. And as long as it's kept away from the kids, of course.
>Social transition and medical transition are entirely different things?!? Maybe if we stopped pretending like they were the same thing then this question would be way easier to answer. Are you in favor of keeping parents in the dark regarding social transition, but those same parents must now be fully on board and involved in their child's life for medical transition? Do you see how this is logically incongruous?
>This seems like a made up hypothetical so I don't know???No; there are literally cases where one parent wants the child to transition and the other does not. Who should get the final say?
>Yes you can??? You literally can't. People can and do lie. In the same manner as teachers bragging on video that they have intentionally infiltrated schools to indoctrinate kids, those with a transgenderism agenda can do the same for the sake of promoting their agenda, whether they choose to publicly say so or not.
>But you've already muddied this entire fucking thing up by conflating social transitioning, puberty blockers, and full-on hormone replacement therapy.No child should be taking puberty blockers or full-on hormone replacement therapy, as they can't consent to it and the effects are irreversible. Puberty blockers don't
just delay puberty which then proceeds as if nothing had happened; they too have irreversible effects. So both should be banned for the purposes of transitioning children.
Whether parents should be kept in the dark about their child socially transitioning is a different question but also highly suspect from an ethical standpoint.
>How often does this happen?? What's the percentage, give it to me.I don't know. It's impossible to tell because many who transition in error will not report as such.
The social stigma of detransitioning, the sunk cost fallacy, and the physiological difficulty in doing so, will be enough that most people will keep their mouths shut even if they are unhappy with the results.
>Or is this a case of not caring how many trans youth lives you destroy in order to save even a single life like a noble soul?Like you said, they can socially transition all they want since that is different from puberty blocking or HRT and
is not irreversible. Maybe they should do that until they become adults and can make an informed decision in the matter?
>>14781>You should have a license for it. Thats just how irresponsible most people are, and unfortunately it affects those around them that want nothing to do with childrenAgreed.
No.14783
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>>14782>Other doctors may prescribe hormones to patients who are 12 and up with parental consent.Wow you quotes the planned parenthood website. Now, what does this mean? What odes "orther doctors" mean?
>Once you start, you are on that path, even if it takes a while to reach the end. Getting off isn't as simple as deciding you've changed your mind, and at that point, a child has undergone irreversible effects.Getting off is as simple as stopping depending on how long it's been going on.
>I think pretending that everything is reversible and going with a medicate first, ask questions later approach is exceedingly dishonestThat's because you're a dishonest piece of shit, really. No one said "medicate first" except you, you dishonest fuck. You literally don't give a shit about what's best for transgender teenagers. You just assume random fucking shit and assume you know the best.
>We did just have someone accusing us of being NazisYou aren't beating the allegations lmao.
No.14784
>>14783>Wow you quotes the planned parenthood website. Now, what does this mean? What odes "orther doctors" mean?Maybe you should e-mail Planned Parenthood and find out? Or are you suggesting that the very left-leaning, abortion- and transition- supporting organization is lying to you? You can find out yourself. I already fulfilled your request for the source.
>Getting off is as simple as stopping depending on how long it's been going on.Depending.
>That's because you're a dishonest piece of shit, really.That's very rude.
>No one said "medicate first" except you, you dishonest fuck.That's also very rude. What do you call prescribing puberty blockers to children and putting them on the path to transition, especially by rubber-stamping ideologues, if not medicating first? especially when the notion that it's reversible is the excuse for doing so.
>You literally don't give a shit about what's best for transgender teenagers.I don't give preferential consideration to transgender teenagers at the expense of autistic, LGB, and otherwise misdiagnosed ones. Sorry to burst your bubble there.
>You just assume random fucking shit and assume you know the best.What am I assuming?
>You aren't beating the allegations lmao.I was unaware that transgenderism implied one's position on fascism, liberal democracy and parliamentary systems, Antisemitism, Communism, Slavism, the Romani, white supremacy, or the desire for Lebensraum. The more you know.
I would say the pro-transgenderism crowd actually has much more in common with the Nazis, since the notion of turning children into eunuchs does seem to follow with the eugenics theme.
No.14785
>>14784>Maybe you should e-mail Planned Parenthood and find out?Maybe you should??????
>That's very rude.Cry me a river.
>What do you call prescribing puberty blockers to children and putting them on the path to transition, especially by rubber-stamping ideologues, if not medicating first?I call it making fucking shit up, that's what I call it. Because in some instance where you were not some anti-trans lunatic and this were actually happening, you would be just for more regulation instead of, as you put it, knee-jerk, like a little bitch.
>I don't give preferential consideration to transgender teenagers at the expense of autistic, LGB, and otherwise misdiagnosed ones.You aren't the kid's doctor, fucker.
>What am I assuming?That you know what these teens need best???
>I would say the pro-transgenderism crowd actually has much more in common with the NazisLMAO holy shit, you are actually a fucking moron. I don't give a shit about decorum anymore. Lmao. The Third Reich was
excplicitly anti-transgender. The German Nazis explicitly burned the books of the Institute for Sexual Science and explicitly targeted transgender individuals.
Fuck you, you piece of shit lmao.
No.14786
>>14785>Maybe you should??????Why would I? You're the one who asked the question. I gave you the information you asked with the appropriate disclaimers, and then I provided an appropriate source as requested. If you want to know the answer from the source itself, stop being lazy and send them an e-mail. Otherwise stop moving the goalpost.
>I call it making fucking shit up, that's what I call it.I'd find more sources for you, but frankly I don't care to appease you at this point.
>Because in some instance where you were not some anti-trans lunaticI'm quite ambivalent on "trans." In this instance I am simply laying out the logical and moral problems with "trans" as regards children. That said, what I don't appreciate is when, like earlier, someone tries to use "trans" as justification to shoehorn other completely unrelated policies (or candidates, or moral positions, or fallacies) down people's throats. There are much, much, much more important issues in this world than "trans." It's nothing more than an intellectual exercise here.
>and this were actually happening, you would be just for more regulation instead of, as you put it, knee-jerk, like a little bitch.It did happen, on a massive scale, in the UK as I recall. It is foolish to presume it hasn't happened elsewhere.
>You aren't the kid's doctor, fucker.Neither are you, thankfully.
>That you know what these teens need best???You are only concerned with "these teens" and I am concerned with "teens." That's the difference.
>LMAO holy shit, you are actually a fucking moron. I don't give a shit about decorum anymore. Lmao. The Third Reich was excplicitly anti-transgender. The German Nazis explicitly burned the books of the Institute for Sexual Science and explicitly targeted transgender individuals.Therefore anyone who disagrees with your assessment of what is best for trans individuals, absent any other considerations for any reason, is a Nazi. Brilliant reasoning.
>Fuck you, you piece of shit lmao.How very rude. But what should I expect from a typical leftist with NPC talking points?
No.14787
>>14785i do not pretend not to have biases: Otter, i agree with your perspectives, but not your candor.
Please consider that townhall has rules about decorum, but please also consider that baiting another into losing their cool is an not uncommon debate tactic.
i will ask that you take a break from the discussion perhaps, in lieu of moderator action, and maybe return to this when you are feeling a bit better, if you want to, that is.
No.14788
>>14771Among other permanent changes as consequence of taking these drugs, yes.
Turns out blocking puberty can have massive side effects. Go figure.
The whole thing feels predatory, too. At least from what I've seen, it doesn't seem like you stop taking pills with these things.
Adults can make the choice to do these kinds of things to their bodies if they so choose.
But children cannot.
It's for the same reason as why it's wrong to have sex with a child; They lack the maturity to give informed consent.
No.14789
>>14778>It took me a lot of digging to get to this if it was "the real question."To be frank, if that's the case, I don't think you were paying attention.
The focus was set on kids from the start for a reason, after all. And the problems of informed consent as well as the permanent effects on their bodies was brought up multiple times prior to this point.
No.14790
>>14783>getting off is as simple as stopping>... depending on how long it's been going onYour point is self defeating.
Nobody thinks sterilization happens after one pill.
It's not an issue of a short time, though even a short time can have other permanent effects.
You could easily quit a lot of hard drugs without ill effect early on. But we all still say it's probably a bad idea to do heroine or smoke Crack, right?
Those are all well understood to be damaging to your health, regardless.
No.14792
>>14783>Has no idea what a nazi actually is Honestly, if Germany had won the war and America didn't get involved, they would have been painted as the good guys. I don't really see how calling someone a nazi is an insult in the first place. That shit happened almost 100 years ago. What's next? You're gonna compare people to Genghis Khan?
Hell, Israel is arguably doing the same thing in a much more efficient and hush-hush manner than the Nazis ever did in the first place. Well, more of an open hush-hush with all of the money they give to American politicians and lobbyists. At this point they can pretty much kill whoever they want and when they get accused of genocide and war crimes, they cry about something that didn't even personally happen to them with a group of people (the actual nazis) that aren't even alive to today.
No.14795
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>>14780>>14779Transitioning is purely cosmetic. It involves drugs and possibly surgery down the line, but at the end of the day it's all about appearances in order to satisfy the mind.
The only issue I can see with 'parental permission' are those disgusting people who try to force their kids to be gay or trans for social media clout. "My baby is gay and trans!" No. Your child is probably more concerned with playing fortnite and skibity toilets
No.14796
>>14792"It says here in this history book that luckily, the good guys have won every single time. What are the odds?”
I don't think they're exactly 'good guys', but at bear minimum, you can see the disconnect between this and how we treat communism.
If Germany wasn't at war with the US, they would'vebeen given at the very least a far lighter touch.
No.14798
>>14797Nah, I think that's fair. The number constantly spiking throughout the years always results in the thing being suspect. Did it happen in some places? Sure, no doubt. Especially as problems of logistics and supply went through, much as any losing nation faces. Hell, look at the US Civil War and some of the prison conditions there, after Sherman burned down half the south. What a surprise, but prisoners weren't on the priority list for food.
There's good reason to be suspicious, especially since it seems like the number gets conflated or at least expanded by the number of slavic people as the Germans were invading eastwards. It seems to me much of them had been lumped together as "jews", when that is probably not at all the case. Some of that, too, will end up being resistance fighters, dissidents, and rebels, killed for those reasons and not simply because of any particular characteristic.
Frankly, the 6 million number always struck me as something that does more harm than good to the whole narrative.
A bit like when global warming folk say the world's gonna end at X or Y date.
They want it to be big and dramatic, but that just makes it unbelievable. Folk start to stop buying into it. Especially when it's bashed over their head continually.
No.14799
>>14798I remember seeing a plaque a long time ago that was made after the war and it said something along the lines of 1 million. Then a news heading from around the time that said 2 shortly after the war. In reality, I don't think anyone actually knows how many people died. Someone just said "Six million!" And people clung to it.
Hot take: I also don't think every single nazi (or even a majority of them) were blood thirsty demons. A shit load of countries to this day commits genocides and war crimes, but it the average individual soldier isn't exactly going to buy into everything their boss tells them or even support the cause 100%.
Sort of like with Israel today. (Though a lot of IDF I've talked to seem to support it without question. Maybe because it's also religiously charged? I don't know.)
No.14800
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Watching the US plunge itself into the dark ages will give us all a chuckle.
Well, at least until we all go down with this ship.
No.14801
>>14800If I am reading that right...
..psychedelics are a good treatment for PTSD = good news
..stem cell therapy has been restricted to the rich and its development slowed/halted for decades due to Pharma wanting to keep people on prescription drugs, as there's more profit = good news
..herbal supplements are not currently covered by health insurance, due to present laws = good news if they will be
No.14804
>>14801I am sure that some of those things turn out fine, but I don't think I can look past how this was framed regardless. Like even if we think the FDA has made some mistakes, which is very likely, I don't think they're carrying out a "war on public health". I'm 100% certain the FDA is not "aggressively supressing" sunshine or exercise, and depending on exactly what he means they are also not holding back "vitamins" and "clean foods". I'm skeptic of what he thinks ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine are good for, and raw milk is just actually not good for anything, that is a TikTok meme that will die out in a year. And in the end he fully cinches it with his own aggression against what are probably some really ordinary workers at whatever alphabet soup building. The tone he's taken and the specific things he's listed as the problem just make him sound like he's gone mad and bought into too many conspiracies.
And again, has the FDA made mistakes? Yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of stuff could be deregulated. Like just actual prescription drugs maybe shouldn't need so many prescriptions. We should be able to import drugs to force big pharma to compete with cheaper alternatives in other countries. But with the exception of maybe psychedelics, he didn't really mention any of that.
No.14805
>>14803Because you've defined the free exchange of goods and services as "bureaucracy".
Nobody else regards free-market capitalism as "bureaucracy".
No.14810
>>14808Like... do you know literally one single thing about their organization and anything about U.S. economic history...
I know from past conversations that you're a very deluded person with a lack of attachment to reality at the mental illness level, but you're still kind of shocking me right now.
No.14812
>>14803>>14805So, hold up again, we've focused on the bureaucracy word rather than the intent of the post.
Butterfly, do you think it is okay for big business to keep medicine away from people but not okay for the FDA to keep medicine away from people?
No.14817
>>14815Sure.
But there's still a difference between them.
